Episode

#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
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2:12:05
Published: Wed Apr 13 2022
Description

Brought to you by FreshBooks cloud-based small business accounting software, Athletic Greens all-in-one nutritional supplement, and JuneShine organic hard kombucha for a brighter buzz.Donald Hoffman ( @donalddhoffman) received a PhD in computational psychology from MIT and is a Professor Emeritus of Cognitive Sciences at the University of California, Irvine. He is an author of over 120 scientific papers and three books, including The Case Against Reality: Why Evolution Hid the Truth from Our Eyes. He is the recipient of the Distinguished Scientific Award of the American Psychological Association and the Troland Research Award of the US National Academy of Sciences.His writing has appeared in Scientific American, New Scientist, LA Review of Books, and Edge, and his work has been featured in Wired, Quanta, The Atlantic, Ars Technica, National Public Radio, Discover Magazine, and Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman. His TED Talk, titled “Do We See Reality as It Is?,” has almost 4M views.Please enjoy!This episode is brought to you by JuneShine! You don’t know it yet, but JuneShine’s going to be your new go-to happy-hour drink. Consistent with their tagline, “organic hard kombucha for a brighter buzz,” I do get a nice buzz, as it sports a hefty 6% ABV (alcohol by volume), but 1–2 drinks doesn’t punish me with a nasty hangover. I enjoy grabbing a can of JuneShine in the late afternoon after a workday or when hanging with friends on the weekend. You’ve also heard me drinking JuneShine in a few Random Show episodes with Kevin Rose. Grapefruit Paloma might be my personal favorite flavor, but I usually grab a Sampler Pack and rotate.​JuneShine is made with organic ingredients, and it is naturally gluten-free. As a listener of The Tim Ferriss Show, you can get an exclusive discount: receive 20% off your first purchase, plus free shipping on any orders over $75. Simply use code TIM at checkout. Taste what all the buzz is about and grab a Sampler Pack here: JuneShine.com/Tim.*This episode is also brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1 by Athletic Greens, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. Right now, Athletic Greens is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and five free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product.*This episode is also brought to you by FreshBooks. I’ve been talking about FreshBooks—an all-in-one invoicing + payments + accounting solution—for years now. Many entrepreneurs, as well as the contractors and freelancers that I work with, use it all the time.FreshBooks makes it super easy to track things like expenses, project time, and client info and then merge it all into great-looking invoices. FreshBooks can save users up to 200 hours a year on accounting and bookkeeping tasks. Right now FreshBooks is offering my listeners a free 30-day trial, and no credit card is required. Go to FreshBooks.com/Tim and claim your free trial today!*What was the Helmholtz Club, and how did it spark a scientific exploration into the meaning of consciousness? [06:19]What is consciousness? [11:24]How should we understand our perceptions and their relationship to reality? David walks us through the desktop interface metaphor as presented in his 2015 TED Talk, and explains why it’s unlikely (with a probability of zero) that human beings evolved to behold the naked entirety of reality. [14:08]Why does Donald, as a cognitive neuroscientist, find this era of physicists exploring consciousness and the nature of an underlying reality we haven’t evolved to see so exciting? Also: is spacetime doomed? [20:31]Will science ever arrive at a theory of everything? [33:00]What is the holographic model of the universe? [37:13]What might things look like in the next decade or two as we begin to fundamentally revise how we think of reality, matter, and the interplay of consciousness? [43:09]How does Donald scientifically explore the concept of conscious agents? [49:48]Is consciousness localized, or does the brain “receive” it from elsewhere? [53:20]How does Donald think about death? [58:55]What are Markovian dynamics? [1:05:27]Supplementary information that might help someone who’s struggling to understand parts of this conversation. [1:07:14]What is panpsychism, and who are some of the most influential panpsychists? [1:08:38]Which aspects of the way we interface with reality give us effective portals into life or consciousness? [1:12:11]Probing the deeper reality suggested by the amplituhedron, associahedron, and cosmological polytope. [1:14:51]At which hallowed institutions are these explorations of consciousness and the nature of a deeper reality being researched, and who is leading the charge? [1:20:18]Donald’s thoughts on the use of hallucinogenic drugs to tap into deeper reality and interact with conscious agents. [1:21:22]Exploring a theory involving portals and morphogenesis. [1:23:18]It’s worth considering ethnobotanical and ethnographical studies that may give us more focused insight into consciousness through a non-Western lens and even have us questioning if plants can be considered a sentient part of this consciousness. [1:27:20]On Chris Fuchs and the outer fringes of Quantum Bayesian — aka QBism. [1:35:38]The experiments Donald would conduct in his research with unlimited funding over the next 10 years, and with whom he would choose to work. [1:40:31]What is Donald reading these days? [1:42:43]Donald names some of his long-time collaborators who pair mathematics with spiritual practice, and describes how he reconciles the two in his own work. [1:47:34]How much pushback has Donald suffered for bringing spirituality into his scientific endeavors? Has any of it been constructive? [2:00:51]How does fitness payoff function work in evolutionary theory, and how does this support the probability of zero that humans evolved to see reality in full? [2:03:27]Parting thoughts. [2:05:46]*For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors.Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissYouTube: youtube.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Chapters
Juneshine uses a green tea and honey base in their June kombucha, which results in a smoother taste compared to traditional kombucha made with black tea and sugar.
00:00 - 01:57 (01:57)
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Juneshine
Summary

Juneshine uses a green tea and honey base in their June kombucha, which results in a smoother taste compared to traditional kombucha made with black tea and sugar. Listeners of the podcast can receive a 20% discount on their first purchase of Juneshine hard kombucha with free shipping for orders over $75.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The podcast explores the implications of research and theories of consciousness, death and time-space construct.
01:57 - 10:56 (08:59)
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Consciousness
Summary

The podcast explores the implications of research and theories of consciousness, death and time-space construct. The discussion proposes getting a neuro reductionist story for consciousness, similar to a molecular biological reductionist story for life.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The relationship between consciousness and evolution by natural selection is explored, specifically in regards to sensory systems and how they shape our understanding of the world around us.
10:56 - 15:39 (04:42)
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Consciousness
Summary

The relationship between consciousness and evolution by natural selection is explored, specifically in regards to sensory systems and how they shape our understanding of the world around us.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The idea that our perceptions of reality are not necessarily homomorphic is discussed, highlighting the limits of our understanding of the world.
15:39 - 24:49 (09:09)
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Theories of Consciousness
Summary

The idea that our perceptions of reality are not necessarily homomorphic is discussed, highlighting the limits of our understanding of the world. The speaker proposes starting with what we consider fundamental reality to create a theory of consciousness.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Scientists are studying deeper structures beyond space and time that give rise to space-time as a simple projection, like cosmological polytopes and amplituhedrons, whereas cognitive neuroscientists believe space-time and objects within it are fundamental.
24:49 - 31:25 (06:36)
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Science
Summary

Scientists are studying deeper structures beyond space and time that give rise to space-time as a simple projection, like cosmological polytopes and amplituhedrons, whereas cognitive neuroscientists believe space-time and objects within it are fundamental. At smaller scales, space-time actually expands rather than contracts, leading to a search for even deeper structures.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Even if one adds true statements to their basic assumptions, or axioms, in a mathematical theory, new true statements will still exist that cannot be proven from within that theory.
31:25 - 37:25 (05:59)
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Mathematics
Summary

Even if one adds true statements to their basic assumptions, or axioms, in a mathematical theory, new true statements will still exist that cannot be proven from within that theory. The deeper structure beyond space-time will need to be mapped onto the interface that evolution gave us so it can be tested using experiments.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The ADS-CFT holographic principle is being used to gather experimental data to test the hypothesis of quantum entanglement in Canary Islands, advancing the study of larger space (bulk) and surface area of black holes.
37:25 - 43:02 (05:36)
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ADS-CFT Holographic Principle
Summary

The ADS-CFT holographic principle is being used to gather experimental data to test the hypothesis of quantum entanglement in Canary Islands, advancing the study of larger space (bulk) and surface area of black holes. Juan Maldacena and Niemar Kani Hamed are working on developing the same methodology for decidder space.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
This podcast discusses the theory of conscious agents and how the interface of space-time could potentially be replaced with a more comprehensive structure when new technologies based on structures beyond space-time are discovered.
43:02 - 49:14 (06:12)
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Consciousness
Summary

This podcast discusses the theory of conscious agents and how the interface of space-time could potentially be replaced with a more comprehensive structure when new technologies based on structures beyond space-time are discovered.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
This podcast discusses how the long-term behavior of conscious agents has structures that are related to structures beyond space-time, and how their behavior can predict properties of consciousness and the possibility of the emergence of space-time.
49:14 - 56:03 (06:48)
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Consciousness
Summary

This podcast discusses how the long-term behavior of conscious agents has structures that are related to structures beyond space-time, and how their behavior can predict properties of consciousness and the possibility of the emergence of space-time.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The difference between non-contextual realism and local realism lies in their claims about the properties of particles like position, momentum, and spin.
56:03 - 1:01:09 (05:05)
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Realism
Summary

The difference between non-contextual realism and local realism lies in their claims about the properties of particles like position, momentum, and spin. While non-contextual realism assumes particles have inherent properties regardless of observation, local realism claims that they do possess such properties but only in context.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The fundamental nature of reality is consciousness and the exploration of mathematical structure is a way for consciousness to explore its possibilities which, in theory, is unending.
1:01:09 - 1:09:32 (08:22)
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Consciousness
Summary

The fundamental nature of reality is consciousness and the exploration of mathematical structure is a way for consciousness to explore its possibilities which, in theory, is unending.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The philosophy of conscious realism suggests that consciousness is the fundamental reality, and space time is merely an interface for this reality.
1:09:32 - 1:15:53 (06:21)
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Philosophy
Summary

The philosophy of conscious realism suggests that consciousness is the fundamental reality, and space time is merely an interface for this reality. Panpsychism, on the other hand, suggests that space time and particles are still fundamental to reality, which conscious realism challenges.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Researchers discovered deeper symmetries in scattering data that cannot be seen in space-time, and they analyze correlations between stars and objects in space.
1:15:53 - 1:24:00 (08:07)
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Science and Drugs.
Summary

Researchers discovered deeper symmetries in scattering data that cannot be seen in space-time, and they analyze correlations between stars and objects in space. Funding is also explored for scientific studies in the realm of psychotropic drugs, including the use of psychedelic compounds.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The deeper understanding of consciousness, the associate hedon, and the cosmological behind space time may lead to the creation of technologies that can open new portals in our space time interface.
1:24:00 - 1:34:51 (10:50)
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Consciousness
Summary

The deeper understanding of consciousness, the associate hedon, and the cosmological behind space time may lead to the creation of technologies that can open new portals in our space time interface. People are interested in experimenting with entity encounters and their encounters with DMT or NNDMT, which give subjective experiences different from 5-MeO DMT, 5-Methoxi DMT.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Maths experiment was carried out demonstrating that while it is possible to predict with probability one what the outcome of a series of measurements will be through quantum theory, it can also be proven that the value did not exist prior to the measurement.
1:34:51 - 1:43:01 (08:09)
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Quantum Mechanics
Summary

Maths experiment was carried out demonstrating that while it is possible to predict with probability one what the outcome of a series of measurements will be through quantum theory, it can also be proven that the value did not exist prior to the measurement.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Chaitan Prakash and Manish Singh are not only mathematical geniuses but also have a deep understanding of spirituality and faith-based religion, which is seen in many spiritual traditions.
1:43:01 - 1:53:42 (10:40)
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Mathematics, Spirituality
Summary

Chaitan Prakash and Manish Singh are not only mathematical geniuses but also have a deep understanding of spirituality and faith-based religion, which is seen in many spiritual traditions. This concept is also explained in Eckhart Tolle's books like A New Earth and The Power of Now.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Science can help us get good pointers, but to deeply understand infinite intelligence, we need to let go of thought and embody it.
1:53:42 - 2:02:08 (08:26)
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Spirituality
Summary

Science can help us get good pointers, but to deeply understand infinite intelligence, we need to let go of thought and embody it. Eventually, the tools and mathematics available to us will obviate the need for the term spirituality.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Organisms tend to cluster payoff functions into similar ones but when such functions are categorized as objects, there is an increased payoff for organisms to fake objects instead of looking for truth.
2:02:08 - 2:08:33 (06:24)
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Organisms
Summary

Organisms tend to cluster payoff functions into similar ones but when such functions are categorized as objects, there is an increased payoff for organisms to fake objects instead of looking for truth. The objects give a shorthand for using a bunch of payoff functions together.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Learn about the smooth Juneshine kombucha made with green tea and honey, and how FreshBooks' award-winning support team can help small business owners.
2:08:33 - 2:12:02 (03:29)
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Kombucha
Summary

Learn about the smooth Juneshine kombucha made with green tea and honey, and how FreshBooks' award-winning support team can help small business owners.

Episode
#585: Professor Donald Hoffman — The Case Against Reality, Beyond Spacetime, Rethinking Death, Panpsychism, QBism, and More
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show