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Episode

#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
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1:35:03
Published: Wed May 25 2022
Description

Brought to you by Wealthfront automated investing, Athletic Greens all-in-one nutritional supplement, and Eight Sleep’s Pod Pro Cover sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating. Edward O. Thorp is the author of the bestseller Beat the Dealer, which transformed the game of blackjack. His subsequent book, Beat the Market, coauthored with Sheen T. Kassouf, influenced securities markets around the globe. He is also the author of A Man for All Markets: From Las Vegas to Wall Street, How I Beat the Dealer and the Market.Edward was one of the world’s best blackjack players and investors, and his hedge funds were profitable every year for 29 years. He lives in Newport Beach, California.Please enjoy!This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront! Wealthfront pioneered the automated investing movement, sometimes referred to as ‘robo-advising,’ and they currently oversee $28 billion of assets for their clients. It takes about three minutes to sign up, and then Wealthfront will build you a globally diversified portfolio of ETFs based on your risk appetite and manage it for you at an incredibly low cost. Smart investing should not feel like a rollercoaster ride. Let the professionals do the work for you. Go to Wealthfront.com/Tim and open a Wealthfront account today, and you’ll get your first $5,000 managed for free, for life. Wealthfront will automate your investments for the long term. Get started today at Wealthfront.com/Tim.*This episode is also brought to you by Eight Sleep! Eight Sleep’s Pod Pro Cover is the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced (and user-friendly) solution on the market. Simply add the Pod Pro Cover to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55°F or as hot as 110°F. It also splits your bed in half, so your partner can choose a totally different temperature.And now, my dear listeners—that’s you—can get $250 off the Pod Pro Cover. Simply go to EightSleep.com/Tim or use code TIM at checkout. *This episode is also brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1 by Athletic Greens, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. Right now, Athletic Greens is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and five free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product.*Edward fills us in on where he grew up, how he was educated, what made the application of mathematics to gambling such a compelling challenge, and why he rushed to publish his successful system after testing it in the real world. [04:51]What reference material did Edward use in his first trip to the blackjack table in Vegas, and why was Claude Shannon at MIT — a person known to be difficult to reach — willing to spare five minutes to meet with him around this time? [12:01]What method did Edward and Claude devise to beat roulette with the assistance of what MIT considers to be the first wearable computer? [15:11]Edward looks great for a man in his 60s — which is especially incredible when you consider he’s 89! Is it just a case of lucky genetics, or does he follow some kind of mortality-cheating health regimen? Has his approach to remaining in shape changed over the years? [17:13]How did finance and investing enter the picture for Edward? Where did this lead, and who did he meet along the way? [25:19]What was it about Warren Buffett that made Edward come away from their first meeting convinced he’d someday be the richest man in the world? [34:22]If Edward were teaching a seminar in investing to a modern student body (some of whom might not possess an aptitude for math), what frameworks would he impart to get them started? [38:55]What lessons learned from investing are transferable to other areas of life? [43:50]Even at 89, Edward considers himself a long-term thinker. How might those of us who struggle to think beyond the short-term be more like Edward? [45:59]How did Edward suss out that something was fishy about the way the Madoff brothers were doing business 17 years before everybody else finally caught on? [50:58]Exploring the mental models of externalities, the tragedy of the commons, and fundamental attribution errors. [59:15]What you should be reading and listening to if you want to enact positive change in the world right now — politically or evolutionarily. [1:08:29]What investors, aside from Warren Buffett, impress Edward — and why? [1:13:48]How has Edward known where to draw the line between growing a business and withdrawing before it consumed all else in his life? What catalyzed his decision to wind things down? [1:17:48]What does independence mean to Edward and how did he spend his time after winding down the investment side of things? [1:22:52]Is there anything Edward’s particularly curious about learning right now? [1:24:27]Pondering a conversation between Joseph Heller and Kurt Vonnegut and other parting thoughts. [1:26:37]*For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors.Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissYouTube: youtube.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Chapters
8 Sleep's Pod Pro Cover can help users fall asleep faster and improve the overall quality of their sleep.
00:00 - 02:18 (02:18)
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Sleep aid
Summary

8 Sleep's Pod Pro Cover can help users fall asleep faster and improve the overall quality of their sleep. Use coupon code "tim" to receive $250 off your purchase at 8sleep.com/tim.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Chris Ashenden, founder of Athletic Greens and a PhD graduate in the field of nutrition science, discusses his background and experience with gambling and nutrition.
02:18 - 06:59 (04:40)
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Nutrition
Summary

Chris Ashenden, founder of Athletic Greens and a PhD graduate in the field of nutrition science, discusses his background and experience with gambling and nutrition. He also provides a special offer for his all-in-one formula.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The founder of the Blackjack Forum magazine and website talked about how he proved that his system works for beating the casino at their own game, and how he got his system published before others took credit for it.
06:59 - 11:34 (04:34)
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Blackjack
Summary

The founder of the Blackjack Forum magazine and website talked about how he proved that his system works for beating the casino at their own game, and how he got his system published before others took credit for it.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
One group of computer programmers sought an advantage in beating the odds in roulette by wearing computers on their bodies, while another designed a shoe computer for the purpose of cheating at blackjack, both in the 1960's.
11:34 - 16:24 (04:50)
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Wearable computer
Summary

One group of computer programmers sought an advantage in beating the odds in roulette by wearing computers on their bodies, while another designed a shoe computer for the purpose of cheating at blackjack, both in the 1960's.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
An individual shares their experience of improving strength through measurable goals and consistent training, with a background of over 25 years of road running and marathons.
16:25 - 22:21 (05:56)
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Fitness
Summary

An individual shares their experience of improving strength through measurable goals and consistent training, with a background of over 25 years of road running and marathons. A training program helped them increase their strength through consistent effort, with a frame focused mindset towards health and fitness also playing an important role.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Warren Buffet shares how he learned about common stock purchase warrants and his fitness routine of dumbbell squats and lunges with emphasis on alternating legs.
22:21 - 28:39 (06:17)
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Investing, Fitness
Summary

Warren Buffet shares how he learned about common stock purchase warrants and his fitness routine of dumbbell squats and lunges with emphasis on alternating legs. He also discusses how his investing and fitness approach has evolved over time.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The speaker discusses creating and managing a successful hedge fund for 20 years by continuously generating mathematical finance ideas to stay ahead of other investors, all while connecting with legendary investor Warren Buffett.
28:39 - 34:42 (06:02)
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Hedge funds
Summary

The speaker discusses creating and managing a successful hedge fund for 20 years by continuously generating mathematical finance ideas to stay ahead of other investors, all while connecting with legendary investor Warren Buffett.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Wealthfront's data show that investing in the index and holding it over time outperforms trying to time the market.
34:42 - 44:09 (09:27)
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Investing
Summary

Wealthfront's data show that investing in the index and holding it over time outperforms trying to time the market. Those who don't buy the index but are like the index as a group end up paying more fees and taxes, resulting in poorer performance.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The 2% rule is a good rule for spending in endowment funds, as simulations show that it can grow to a large amount over time, so investors should think in the long-term for better results, while being aware of their own weaknesses regarding short-term thinking.
44:09 - 53:00 (08:51)
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endowment fund
Summary

The 2% rule is a good rule for spending in endowment funds, as simulations show that it can grow to a large amount over time, so investors should think in the long-term for better results, while being aware of their own weaknesses regarding short-term thinking.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
After Madoff's Ponzi scheme was exposed in 2008, an analyst analyzed a hedge fund that invested in Madoff, where he found that half of the trades did not exist.
53:00 - 57:47 (04:47)
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Hedge Fund
Summary

After Madoff's Ponzi scheme was exposed in 2008, an analyst analyzed a hedge fund that invested in Madoff, where he found that half of the trades did not exist.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Mental shortcuts can lead to flawed thinking, such as the rejection of Einstein's theory of relativity despite overwhelming evidence.
57:47 - 1:05:49 (08:01)
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Mental shortcuts, Mental models, Einstein
Summary

Mental shortcuts can lead to flawed thinking, such as the rejection of Einstein's theory of relativity despite overwhelming evidence. It's important to be aware of our mental models and to seek out diverse opinions in order to make better decisions.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
Taxing negative externalities can create incentives to decrease harmful actions, however, it can be difficult to implement rational solutions to social problems despite their effectiveness.
1:05:48 - 1:10:19 (04:30)
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Social Problems
Summary

Taxing negative externalities can create incentives to decrease harmful actions, however, it can be difficult to implement rational solutions to social problems despite their effectiveness.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The history of China is crucial in understanding and navigating the complex world of geopolitics, and it is essential to stress-test our cognitive biases in investing and decision making.
1:10:19 - 1:16:40 (06:20)
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China
Summary

The history of China is crucial in understanding and navigating the complex world of geopolitics, and it is essential to stress-test our cognitive biases in investing and decision making. Patrick Collison and Tyler Cowen discuss the significance of reading up on the history of China in this context.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The speaker shares their experience of investing in science equipment and technology alongside saving money for college.
1:16:40 - 1:20:21 (03:40)
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Investing
Summary

The speaker shares their experience of investing in science equipment and technology alongside saving money for college. They emphasize the importance of investing in what you are interested in and doing what you love for success.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The podcast guest believes that only those in positions of great importance can make a grand impact, but individuals can still make a difference on a small scale through personal growth and making positive choices.
1:20:21 - 1:27:28 (07:07)
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Individual impact
Summary

The podcast guest believes that only those in positions of great importance can make a grand impact, but individuals can still make a difference on a small scale through personal growth and making positive choices.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show
The episode features a range of topics including a promotional offer given by Athletic Greens, books, gadgets, and tech tricks.
1:27:29 - 1:32:49 (05:19)
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Lifestyle
Learn about the benefits of the 8 Sleep system in enhancing sleep, including the Pod Pro Cover that helps regulate temperature.
1:32:50 - 1:34:43 (01:53)
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Sleep
Summary

Learn about the benefits of the 8 Sleep system in enhancing sleep, including the Pod Pro Cover that helps regulate temperature. Results show that 8 Sleep users fall asleep faster, reduce sleep interruptions, and get more restful sleep overall.

Episode
#596: Edward O. Thorp, A Man For All Markets — Beating Blackjack and Roulette, Beating the Stock Market, Spotting Bernie Madoff Early, and Knowing When Enough is Enough
Podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show