Episode
#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
2:08:53
Published: Thu Feb 02 2023
Description
Brought to you by Athletic Greens’s AG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement, Helix Sleep premium mattresses, and Shopify global commerce platform providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business. Elan Lee (@elanlee) is the co-creator and chief executive officer of Exploding Kittens, a leading gaming and entertainment company. Under his leadership, Exploding Kittens has expanded its portfolio to nearly 30 different games with more than 20 million games sold in more than 50 countries since its founding in 2015. Before founding Exploding Kittens, Lee was the chief design officer at Xbox Entertainment Studios, where he led the Interactive Entertainment Portfolio. Prior to that, he was the founder and chief creative officer of Fourth Wall Studios and co-founder of 42 Entertainment. He began his career at Microsoft Games Studios as a lead designer on the original Xbox. Lee has won a Primetime Emmy for the series Dirty Work; Game Innovator of the Year for Exploding Kittens; a Peabody Award for the world’s first alternate reality game, The Beast; and an IndieCade Trailblazer Award for a distinguished career in interactive entertainment, among others.Please enjoy!This episode is brought to you by Shopify! Shopify is one of my favorite platforms and one of my favorite companies. Shopify is designed for anyone to sell anywhere, giving entrepreneurs the resources once reserved for big business. In no time flat, you can have a great-looking online store that brings your ideas to life, and you can have the tools to manage your day-to-day and drive sales. No coding or design experience required.Go to shopify.com/Tim to sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period. It’s a great deal for a great service, so I encourage you to check it out. Take your business to the next level today by visiting shopify.com/Tim.*This episode is also brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1 by Athletic Greens, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. Right now, Athletic Greens is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and 5 free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product.*This episode is also brought to you by Helix Sleep! Helix was selected as the #1 overall mattress of 2020 by GQ magazine, Wired, Apartment Therapy, and many others. With Helix, there’s a specific mattress to meet each and every body’s unique comfort needs. Just take their quiz—only two minutes to complete—that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you. They have a 10-year warranty, and you get to try it out for a hundred nights, risk-free. They’ll even pick it up from you if you don’t love it. And now, Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders plus two free pillows at HelixSleep.com/Tim.*[06:00] Poetry For Neanderthals and collaborating with creative cohorts.[16:41] Kitty Test Pilots and core gameplay loops.[22:21] Crowdfunding, alternate reality games, and internet archaeology.[25:54] Matthew Inman and The Oatmeal millions.[32:18] The perils of operating faster than the speed of Gmail.[34:06] Converting casual fans into superfans.[34:51] What not to do when your Kickstarter goes better than expected.[36:51] The budget of production needs to fit the fun.[43:01] Does size matter?[44:44] From direct-to-consumer sales to being featured in big box stores.[47:07] Building a game from scratch quickly.[52:26] Guiding principles.[56:37] Foundational game recommendations for beginners.[1:05:10] Is Settlers of Catan the game you think it is?[1:07:35] Lessons learned from game design veteran Jordan Weisman.[1:08:50] If you built Jar Jar Binks’ neck, they practically let you run the place.[1:11:38] If you can’t rock the vote, then clothe the vote.[1:15:35] Other practical Jordanisms.[1:16:55] Steven Spielberg and The Beast.[1:23:19] Hate playing Candy Land with your kids? Design new games with them.[1:28:02] Growing Exploding Kittens from a game into a company.[1:32:56] International shipping nightmares.[1:36:13] Why an open-door policy had to be shut.[1:38:27] Employees and their roles.[1:41:50] Milestones.[1:43:06] When big asks get big results.[1:47:18] Investor expectations.[1:52:15] What kind of retirement does someone who makes fun for a living envision?[1:56:07] Dance partners, algorithm defiance, and other parting thoughts.*For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsorsSign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissYouTube: youtube.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Margaret Atwood, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Dr. Gabor Maté, Anne Lamott, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Chapters
Shopify provides support and resources for entrepreneurs, innovating and improving their service constantly.
00:00 - 04:20 (04:20)
Summary
Shopify provides support and resources for entrepreneurs, innovating and improving their service constantly. Helix Sleep, a premium mattress brand, offers personalized mattresses based on sleep preferences through an online quiz.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
Lee Sheldon, a renowned game designer, talks about his various awards and achievements, in addition to discussing the game Think Like a Game Designer and his collaboration with Justin Garry.
04:20 - 11:10 (06:50)
Summary
Lee Sheldon, a renowned game designer, talks about his various awards and achievements, in addition to discussing the game Think Like a Game Designer and his collaboration with Justin Garry. He also describes the endless fun that can be had playing games designed for all ages.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The core gameplay loop is essential in creating memorable video games, as it provides a strong foundation for enjoyable interactions between players.
11:10 - 16:41 (05:30)
Summary
The core gameplay loop is essential in creating memorable video games, as it provides a strong foundation for enjoyable interactions between players. A strong core gameplay loop can make up for any other shortcomings in a game.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
Learn about the process of developing a core gameplay loop for a video game and the importance of enhancing the experience with additional features and mechanics.
16:41 - 22:07 (05:26)
Summary
Learn about the process of developing a core gameplay loop for a video game and the importance of enhancing the experience with additional features and mechanics. Russian roulette with a deck of cards is provided as an example of a core gameplay loop.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The conversation bounces between topics like Kickstarter and Alternate Reality Games or ARGs.
22:07 - 28:52 (06:45)
Summary
The conversation bounces between topics like Kickstarter and Alternate Reality Games or ARGs. The guest speaks about their experience with creating compelling narratives to be broken into little pieces and hidden all over the internet and the real world, making a game out of solving the puzzle.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The podcast hosts discuss turning casual fans into enthusiastic supporters and how the shift in perspective to emphasizing community and relationship building can increase engagement during livestreams and other events.
28:52 - 34:21 (05:28)
Summary
The podcast hosts discuss turning casual fans into enthusiastic supporters and how the shift in perspective to emphasizing community and relationship building can increase engagement during livestreams and other events.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The founders of Cards Against Humanity talk about the temptation to branch out and expand a business after it has become successful, as well as how it is difficult to compare the success of current Kickstarter campaigns with those from previous years.
34:21 - 41:24 (07:03)
Summary
The founders of Cards Against Humanity talk about the temptation to branch out and expand a business after it has become successful, as well as how it is difficult to compare the success of current Kickstarter campaigns with those from previous years.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
Smaller game stores that typically sell more hardcore games are expanding into party games by partnering with larger retailers like Target and Walmart to offer smaller boxes while still maintaining the quality of gameplay.
41:24 - 48:24 (07:00)
Summary
Smaller game stores that typically sell more hardcore games are expanding into party games by partnering with larger retailers like Target and Walmart to offer smaller boxes while still maintaining the quality of gameplay.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
This podcast episode delves into the psychology of card games and how people's behavior and decision making can be affected during gameplay.
48:24 - 50:56 (02:32)
Summary
This podcast episode delves into the psychology of card games and how people's behavior and decision making can be affected during gameplay.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The complexity of board games can affect a player's experience of it, with simpler games having more appeal.
50:56 - 58:09 (07:12)
Summary
The complexity of board games can affect a player's experience of it, with simpler games having more appeal. Instructions that discourage reading the rules are becoming more popular.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The speaker shares various types of games that are essential to know for anyone interested in games, comparing them to a chef's knowledge of basic ingredients like salt and oil.
58:09 - 1:02:26 (04:16)
Summary
The speaker shares various types of games that are essential to know for anyone interested in games, comparing them to a chef's knowledge of basic ingredients like salt and oil. Some of the games mentioned include board games like chess and Japanese chess, as well as collectible trading card games like Pokemon and Magic the Gathering.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The host discusses the concept of flow states in games and wonders if women get into it more easily than men.
1:02:26 - 1:07:22 (04:55)
Summary
The host discusses the concept of flow states in games and wonders if women get into it more easily than men.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The speaker shares about her experience being hired right out of college onto the Xbox group, and her interactions with a virtual reality designer who invented immersive games and opened the first virtual reality spaces ever in history.
1:07:22 - 1:10:22 (03:00)
Summary
The speaker shares about her experience being hired right out of college onto the Xbox group, and her interactions with a virtual reality designer who invented immersive games and opened the first virtual reality spaces ever in history. She aspires to design or collaborate on the design of a game in the future.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
A man talks about how he got hired to produce games, but was soon offered to help design games instead, and how that opportunity came about.
1:10:22 - 1:14:11 (03:48)
Summary
A man talks about how he got hired to produce games, but was soon offered to help design games instead, and how that opportunity came about.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
A clothing-based game, designed by Jordan, became a beat-for-beat retelling of the founding of the United States that managed to encourage hundreds of thousands of new registered voters.
1:14:11 - 1:18:11 (04:00)
Summary
A clothing-based game, designed by Jordan, became a beat-for-beat retelling of the founding of the United States that managed to encourage hundreds of thousands of new registered voters. Players could learn the story behind the foundation of the country and the motivations of the US Founding Fathers while playing.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The "Halo" video game series was originally created as a script for a movie, but was later turned into a video game with a surprise marketing approach.
1:18:11 - 1:23:30 (05:19)
Summary
The "Halo" video game series was originally created as a script for a movie, but was later turned into a video game with a surprise marketing approach. The creators went through multiple set pieces to bring the story of characters living in the same world as AI to life.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The podcast host discusses why kids' games are often lacking in quality and suggests ways to improve them to provide children with a more enjoyable gaming experience.
1:23:30 - 1:26:38 (03:07)
Summary
The podcast host discusses why kids' games are often lacking in quality and suggests ways to improve them to provide children with a more enjoyable gaming experience.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
A five-year-old girl has helped design multiple games that will be available in retail stores next year.
1:26:38 - 1:29:23 (02:44)
Summary
A five-year-old girl has helped design multiple games that will be available in retail stores next year. Game designer, Elan Lee, speaks about his interactions with her and how he ensures she enjoys playing the games.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
First-time game designers could be at risk of financial difficulties, especially if they have a predominant overseas backer base.
1:29:23 - 1:34:46 (05:22)
Summary
First-time game designers could be at risk of financial difficulties, especially if they have a predominant overseas backer base. The inspection, damage, or holes in games during transport could cause problems for designers, as well as licensing options for adaptation across various media formats.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The cost of shipping and insurance is often overlooked when it comes to selling board games, as customers expect it to be free or very cheap, but it can end up costing much more than the price of the game itself.
1:34:46 - 1:38:24 (03:38)
Summary
The cost of shipping and insurance is often overlooked when it comes to selling board games, as customers expect it to be free or very cheap, but it can end up costing much more than the price of the game itself. Hiring a talented team to collect games from conventions and other sources also adds to the overall expenses.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The founders of video game company, Telltale Games, share how allowing others to help distribute, market, and create content based on their game, led to success and partnerships with top industry leaders.
1:38:24 - 1:45:47 (07:23)
Summary
The founders of video game company, Telltale Games, share how allowing others to help distribute, market, and create content based on their game, led to success and partnerships with top industry leaders.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
One entrepreneur describes how he was given a second chance following a company failure, and the importance of good board decks to a healthy company.
1:45:47 - 1:50:19 (04:31)
Summary
One entrepreneur describes how he was given a second chance following a company failure, and the importance of good board decks to a healthy company.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The approach to building a company could be similar to a private equity investment, but it's important to retain control as equity holders.
1:50:19 - 1:56:19 (06:00)
Summary
The approach to building a company could be similar to a private equity investment, but it's important to retain control as equity holders. In the face of building a company, it's important to preserve the desire and freshness of the vision.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
The hosts of the podcast discuss the dangers of the algorithmic seduction and the impact it has on creators who rely on positive reinforcement from their audience.
1:56:19 - 2:02:51 (06:32)
Summary
The hosts of the podcast discuss the dangers of the algorithmic seduction and the impact it has on creators who rely on positive reinforcement from their audience. They stress the importance of being aware and taking steps to counter it while cautioning the risks involved if your organic reach is throttled.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
Helix Sleep offers 14 unique mattresses, including luxury models, big and tall mattresses, and even a mattress made specifically for kids, all tailored to your sleep preferences.
2:02:51 - 2:06:41 (03:49)
Summary
Helix Sleep offers 14 unique mattresses, including luxury models, big and tall mattresses, and even a mattress made specifically for kids, all tailored to your sleep preferences. They have different models with memory foam layers and responsive foam to provide optimal pressure relief and support for your body in various sleeping positions.
Episode#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
PodcastThe Tim Ferriss Show
Shopify is an innovative platform that provides entrepreneurs with the resources to grow their online business, including tools for finding customers, driving sales, and managing day-to-day operations.
2:06:41 - 2:09:00 (02:18)
Summary
Shopify is an innovative platform that provides entrepreneurs with the resources to grow their online business, including tools for finding customers, driving sales, and managing day-to-day operations.